Patients is the key @Metalheadfred happy growing
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@Lostgirl @Reed71
Well unfortunately, despite all efforts, i think its over for this run 
. Was hoping to make it till monday when the recharge and AN products arrived but…
So these were numbers from the 3 that needed watering on 2/10
Biscotti front left
In
Ph6.9 Ppm840
Out:
Ph6.35 Ppm998
Wedding cake back left
In
Ph6.9 ppm990
Out:
Ph6.24 Ppm1040
Apple fritter center 2gal pot
In
Ph6.55 Ppm810
Out:
Ph6.4 ppm908
Was thinking with these numbers they’d start showing some additional progress but literally within 24hrs i was looking at 50% of the fan leaves completely yellow and wilted. And by today 2 of the 5 plants have basically only sugar leaves left 
On 2/11 i did a light watering (like storm suggested) on the wedding cake(back right) just till moist with no runoff adding just 5ml calmag
Wedding cake right
In
Ph6.7 Ppm360
Tonight shes starting to yellow up pretty good like the rest. This one i may be able to save but the yellowing is happening so fast i dont know what to do ahhhhh.
I was at walmart last night and i saw they had worm castings on the shelf so figured id grab some to maybe add some “life”. i top dressed them all last night but waited till tonight to water in slightly out of desperation.
Completely at a loss here. I mean, i can deal with losing the grow, but i REALLY want to know what is happening here so i can correct for next round.
I am likely going to switch to the AN ph perfect line for next round but what if that doesnt work either 
I had similar issues with my last grow which led to me finding this forum. Ive upgraded my whole setup and followed all the advice i could possibly find here on the forum(and ive spent months reading before asking for advice) yet here i am again(8 months later) with another crop going bad ahhhh lol.
Thanks
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Pictures? @Metalheadfred
You’ve done about all I can think of to rectify the issue. The major problem is the amount of times of stressing the plant with excessive water. Allowing the roots to set in excessive water deprives roots of oxygen doing this enough will eventually calls the roots to deteriorate and potentially rot as oxygen dissolves in water.
Your chance of recovery depends on how quickly you catch and resolve the problem. It sounds as if your case it was not caught until the last watering and has been going on since you’ve been feeding to running off.
Not seeing a recent picture as you described the plant has lost all its leaves and or all are damaged. Your plants are in the very early stage a flowering and need the leaves to continue growing successfully. Again I would need to see a real-time picture of their current status.
Moving forward
If indeed the roots are compromised and the leaves are destroyed it’s little to no chance of a recovery.
I think the lesson for future grows would be proper watering practices and not necessarily nutrients. Watering improperly can go south very quick creating lots of stress and destruction to our plants. Unfortunately, we see a lot of this on the forum.
Known exactly when to water, how much water to use, how much nutrients to feed, proper pH adjustment, and dry time of the soil must be a correct to maintain a well-oiled machine (so to speak)
As far as nutrient selection goes there’s a lot of great nutrient lines out there. I personally like advanced nutrients as they’re one of the oldest nutrient companies that are cannabis specific in their creations.
One of the biggest struggles especially amongst new people is proper pH management. Advanced nutrients pH perfect totally eliminates any issues of pH. That was my selling point. Understanding the chelation process makes you appreciate what they’ve done with their fantastic line a base nutrients. I’ve used the pH perfect line for a little over 2 years now. I’ve never once in any grow with any plant ever adjusted the pH of my feeds nor have I ever gotten a pH issue whatsoever. That alone to me is priceless. Just my two cents.
I’ve seen many successful grows with Fox Farm Trio, general hydronics, and jacks.
It’s following through with the basic fundamentals and the understanding of them is where success comes in. Unfortunately, to get that knowledge has to comes failure. We learn from our mistakes and get better each time.
Enclosing, post some current pictures.
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Good morning @Lostgirl
Thanks again. I completely understand everything your saying and it appears that im having the issues of a total newbie with the watering, feeding, ph, etc… and thats the thing that aggravates me the most. Having quite a few successful grows under my belt over the past few years since getting back into the hobby and many more back in the 90s, i just cant help thinking there is something very specific going on here that i just cant figure out.
A few pics from recent years
Aaaand a pic from this morning just before lights out
Driving me completely nuts!! I dont mind spending whatever $ it takes to get things on the right track, but(as a perfectionist as i know you are) i really need to know what is happening.
Anyway, got to get on the road for work. Really appreciate your time. I am not going to give up on these girls until completely dead. Going to order some new beans in the meantime.
Thanks
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I truly understand your frustrations. Understand things are going to get worse before they get better.
Patience is a key here. We’ve identified the problem. You haven’t received the recharge that’s desperately needed. We need to continue the original plan. Until the recharge gets here, watering is reduced to as little as a cup of runoff in your five gallon pots.
Let’s try to stay away from acts of desperation don’t deviate from the plan. The only hope for these girls is that the recharge can bring back the compromised roots.
Microbial life creates better nutrient absorption through the roots when it eats the nutrients and poops them out. I highly doubt you have any living microbes in your soil. Depending upon how bad the roots are affected is going to dictate if there’s any chance of recovery.
We have to go through the process. I know you’re looking for the quick fix answer and there is none. I believe you say your package comes in Monday with the recharge.
If this is so, do yourself a favor do not out of desperation try to feed these girls if they’re not totally dry. (It adds fuel to the fire)… I know you’ve got experience in growing but I’ll tell you the way I water my plants personally.
I grow in 3 gallon bags. Constantly I get one cup of runoff every time I feed. No more no less. Once my plant has been watered when I pick that plant up I feel like I’m holding a gallon of milk each day I picked that plan up to feel its weight. Until that plant feels like a loaf of bread it doesn’t get watered. if I pick it up and it feels like 1/2 gallon of milk, it sits another day. This trained you to feel the weight. I’ve never used a feeding/ watering schedule whatsoever. My rule, loaf of bread or it doesn’t get watered. This 100% guarantees that I’ve given sufficient dry time to take up the oxygen The Roots need so badly.
The plants are definitely in rough shape. We definitely need to be patient and things will get worse. We have to at least do the proper watering practices and Waite on the recharge to see if there’s any chance of recovery.
I wish I could give you better news
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Hey @Lostgirl thanks
Wanted to respond sooner but installing a kitchen 2hrs from home made for an extremely long day yesterday.
I have to clarify the watering thing so i can best resolve this going forward.
I know your head is going to explode here(and i apologize ahead of time 
) but i cant stress this enough. These girls were absolutely, positively, not watered too often. Its by far the one thing i was a stickler about this round. Drench to drought. Heavy to loaf of bread(which is pretty easy to determine with the fabric pots). There were several times i went an extra day just to be sure and would find the girls wilted from too little water. I completely understand they have the look of overwatering but i definitely did not(which is why i finally broke down and asked for advice here and why im completely stressed)
In fact, because i saw this subject come up so often in my research here, I even told my girlfriend early on - “if i die before this grow is done, DONT OVER WATER, ITS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS!!!” She still understands nothing about this btw 
she always enjoys the final product though 
As for the “amount” of water, In all of my reading here, i came across the “20% runoff” and “you can never water too much, only too often” and similar statments over and over again. I thought 20% runoff for a 5gal pot meant 1gal. Maybe my math was wrong there but thought the idea was simply to push out the old unused salts and replace with the new nutrients. That said, i know my runoff trays dont hold a full gallon and only let them fill up about 3/4 full each time so i can’t say exactly how much ive been getting. I could measure for clarification but it didnt seem like an unreasonable amount.
Going forward i am definitely running less water at each feeding as you suggested.
I know from having 5 fish tanks running at the moment that i have really hard well water. High gh and kh. Ive not had it lab tested but that typically means high concentrations of calcium and magnesium. Perhaps i have some other nefarious element in the water thats contributing to this but who knows. I switched to a 50/50 mix of distilled/tap for this grow which has reduced ppm to around 70. I suppose i could switch to straight distilled but I have a dog with a liver condition and he can only have distilled water so im going through it like crazy. My distiller is running daily. I dont like the idea of RO due to the amount of water thats wasted but may consider this.
And all that said, my first grows out of this tent were watered with 100% well water start to finish and had very little issues. I suppose the quality of the well water could have declined since but who knows. Some of my fish are 5yrs old(and i do biweekly 40% water changes) so i cant imagine its overly toxic.
I understand what your saying about the flush (and maybe too much water at feedings)stripping the life out of the soil and hope the recharge helps. Im not overly optimistic but curious to see results.
And i know i said “out of desperation” but i literally just top dressed with the worm castings and barely moistened it(the next day). Didnt add enough water to really do anything. Was just hoping the “life” would leach down into the existing soil.
Ive battered my brain going through every scenario i can think of from environment, nutes, water etc… and the only common thread is the ff soil. Ive upgraded every aspect of my grow setup except the soil. Id love to try the coco coir but impossible for me to water twice a day if it became necessary. And all that said, my first grows out of this tent were in the ff soil with very little issues 
. Has the quality of the ff soil declined that much? Who knows but i do see alot of issues on the forum. Alot of those seem to date back years though so who knows.
At this point its not so much about saving this round but fixing for the future. I cant get 2 months into a grow and have it tank again as quick as this is happening. I will literally go off the deep end 
ive wasted so much frikin time here. My last grow went bad too which led me to finding this forum. I used all the info i could gather here trying to save it but it failed. Spent over a month trying to reveg but they never recovered.
From process of elimination it just seems that some nutrient is being locked out or excess of something or… the SEVERE decline within 24hrs of watering(with good numbers) just doesnt make any sense!!!
Sorry for the novel but again, i cant stress enough the attention to detail that was paid to the frequency of watering from the beginning of this grow.
I am definitely following your lead here and appreciate the time as always. I am, as always, going to wait for these girls to COMPLETELY dry before adding the recharge. I guess my only question is, given the last runoff numbers, and topping with the worm castings, do you think i should combine some level of nutes with the recharge?
Thanks
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@Metalheadfred Wow 
, thank you for the long clarification response 
you’re exactly right (to a point) on the definition of overwatering. In theory over watering is too often. Nevertheless, you can cross a line. It’s in my opinion you cross that line.
I say this because I’ve seen it before and the affection are the same. I’ve grown in five gallon pots before I choose to use three now but nevertheless, with a nice healthy plant in Fox Farm soil utilizing 1-1/4 gallons of feed water gives you approximately one and a half to two cups of runoff.
I’m assuming you give somewhere around 2 gallons per (give or take) each plant to get 3/4 - 1 gallon runoff. This means the soil is severely saturated and could deprive of the time it takes to dry and not give the plant the oxygen it needs. It totally fits.
I am in no way the water police or even an expert when it comes to any of this. But I’ve been around long enough to see things happen repetitively on these forums and when I’m involved helping I remember the circumstances when I make my assessments.
I totally believe you when you say you’re letting your plants dry and that’s good. Let’s continue to not give more than one cup of runoff to these girls while attempting to help them. I know you also have experience and that’s a big bonus especially when I’m trying to help you as you understand 99% of what I’m telling you. This makes my job easier to assist.
Also you’re correct when you mention pushing out the old salt especially when you’re growing with Fox Farm Trio which contains more salts than the average brand. However I believe you’re using jacks? The bottom line is I believe you were feeding too much water too many times and The Roots couldn’t tolerate it. That is my personal assessment on your plants.
I can appreciate your concerns with the pricing of distilled water and the need for your puppy to utilize it. If you don’t mind I forget what is the PPM of your tap water alone?
Believe me my friend I’m not trying to give you a hard time with anything I know I’m very demanding and maybe sometimes pushy LOL but you can rest assured I take this stuff very serious and I only have your best interest for your plants at heart.
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@Lostgirl @Storm @Metalheadfred @Reed71 .
I’ve read through all the post an all the remedies y’all have tried an I agree with y’all to a point, improperly maintained on watering, but what I am seeing with the discoloration and massive wilting is root rot due to the climbing ppm numbers and lowering pH numbers, I’m not sure how to remedy root rot in soil but when this was happening to me in Hydro I used 3% H2O2 and hydroguard and it slowly reverted the problem. Not sure if this was any help to y’all.
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It’s definitely Root Rot due to saturated roots deprived of oxygen. It’s quite clear it’s difficult to diagnose in soil because you can’t see the roots themselves, but this stood out to me. Adding 10ml of hydrogen peroxide can help clean it and restoring and feeding the microbial life is a must. There’s never a guarantee as it really depends on how bad the root rot has manifested.
I watched a member destroy their entire crop last Summer in there tent grow as they insisted it was magnesium and didn’t treat for root rot when suggested. At least @Metalheadfred has ordered the necessary stuff to attempt to resolve the issue
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Believe me i know and i value your opinion more than you know. From what ive seen you are without a doubt the numbers guru around here and i see you helping many of us.
I just feel like a kid whos friend just did something REALLY bad and you get blamed for it. And nobody believes you 
I have typically been at around 140ppm from the tap. Cutting it 50/50 with distilled has cut that to around 70ppm.
Just took a fresh reading out of the tap
To me this doesnt seem overly horrible. Was talking to a friend today(not a grower but has grower friends and he suggested the possibility of something else leaching into our tap water🤷♂️
Thanks for chiming in Dan. After extensive reading here on the forum I actually came to the same conclusion on my last grow which went bad as well. Before i pulled the plug on the whole crop i pulled one of the plants and rinsed the roots in a peroxide solution and replanted(merely as an experiment). It did in fact seem to get some life back but ultimately croaked 
i didnt take pictures or keep a journal but to my untrained eye the roots didnt look overly bad. They were white .
Would root rot wait till flowering to present itself? Both grows went fairly well till they hit flower then drastic decline.
I intentionally switched to the fabric pots for this grow knowing the roots would receive better oxygen and self prune to a degree.
Since these girls are toast at this point anyway, maybe ill pull the worst one and take some pictures of the roots and report back for opinions.
Well, thank you all again for taking the time
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That’s not a very bad PPM for tap water. In fact, if it were me I wouldn’t cut the water 50/50 depriving your dog of his needed distilled water. The tap waters PPM is contributing to the final feeds PPM number so the lower the PPM the more nutrients you can give.
Like I said I don’t see the urgency of cutting 50/50 with your current nutrient line. I highly doubt that your water source is a contributing factor but you could go to your water source website and print out a water quality report that breaks down everything in your water.
I wouldn’t kill anything yet. You could try the peroxide while you wait for the microbial life. You say they’re coming in on Monday?
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I would not pull the plug on them yet, here is what I would do, my flowering plant is getting 1.5 gallons of water in a 5 gal fabric pot but only when I lift her up an she is as light as a loaf of bread. I mix 1 gallon with my Nutrients and leave 1/2 gallon PHed 6.1
I put 1/2 gallon nutrients then 1/4 gallon PHed water back and forth takes about 45 minutes. Now with the PHed water I would add H2O2 with it so it’s being pushed into the soil.
And to answer your question on root rot an how long it takes to have effects, it’s just a time game it could come on strong in veg or it could build up over time due to like you said the older roots pruning themselves…
In veg and was having zero effects on growth did H2O2 treatment and " I’m in hydroponics DWC" got hydroguard and it’s clearing up
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@Lostgirl @DanB
Soooo i didnt have the heart to pull any of them as they were all showing some signs of life Granted not much, but leaves were standing up so… this has been their mo though for the past 3 or 4 weeks. Look ok, dry out, water, wilt, yellow everywhere
There is some decent coloring on a few of them, mainly on the lower areas.
I pulled a ton of yellow leaves at lights on but left any that had even the smallest amount of green on them. Figured id let them consume every last bit of life out of them at this point.
Recharge, voodoo, and candy are supposed to be here monday but we are getting clobbered with ice and snow right now and its supposed to continue tomorrow so we’ll see 
The five gallon pots feel like they’ll easily make it till monday(maybe even Tuesday) but the 2 gallon is pretty light right now(see what she says tomorrow)
Do you think i should go with just the recharge or combine with the AN products or all (including some level of jacks) on monday?
Thanks guys for the time. Cant tell you how much i appreciate it 
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I’m not an expert by any definition of the word, but if I was in your situation I would not use jacks, I would use AN, and I would mix at least 1/2 gallon with H2O2 at a mix rate of 1/2 gallon water - 10ML H2O2 and cross feed. Start with the H2O2 water 1/4 gallon then 1/2 gallon of AN feed then other 1/4 gallon H2O2 and finish other 1/2 gallon of AN feed. Then when your microbial feed comes in rebuild the soil with it slowly.
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Thanks @DanB
Unfortunately i only have the jacks and ff trio on hand right now as far as nutrients. Switched to jacks for this grow because it seemed to be a start to finish type product as opposed to the ff which required the scheduled flushes.
Under the guidance of @Lostgirl i have the recharge, voodoo juice and bud candy coming monday. Sounds like the AN products would have been the better choice for the nutrient line and im likely going to switch.
That crossfeed with the peroxide seems like a good idea if i do in fact have root rot. I suppose ill play it by ear over the next feed or 2 and see if i continue to get the severe wilt after watering. I suppose i could experiment on my 2 gallon pot which may be due for water tomorrow. It would have to be with the jacks or ff trio though.
Thanks
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Yes use the Jacks if that’s what you have, and try on the 2 gallon pot, just be sure to feed slow so the entire root system has a chance to get the H2O2 water on it then the nutrients and that you are removing the run off water from the bottom of the pot and tent.
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@Lostgirl @DanB
I will try the h2o2 tomorrow with the 2gal pot as im pretty sure she will be ready for water.
Should i just go ahead and do this with the 5gal pots tomorrow as well even if they’re not ready to be watered? Would i then add the recharge on Monday or wait till they dry up again?
Also, going to make the nutrient switch as lostgirl has been recommending for a while now. Just want to confirm this is the correct product line
Thanks again
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That’s the correct ones, and as for the 5 gal pots that’s your call if you think they will be ok until you see if any repairs happen to the smaller one, or treat asap an allow time to fight an kill bad bacteria on or around the roots killing them.
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No, if they’re not ready to be watered (loaf of bread) don’t do it
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