pH dipping - Photo - Droopy - Yellowing

@Metalheadfred
I created this thread for you so we didn’t hijack the other guys page. Below is your concerns that you posted. I’m going to grab a cup of coffee and I’ll try to assist. Be back in a few minutes. :v: Also, be sure you go down to the alert button below and hit follow as this will be your postings

******************* YOUR POST *****************

i dont want to hijack this thread but im in the same position as the op here and need an opinion.
Flipped to 12/12 on 1/9, ffhf and ffof, jacks 321, 5gal fabric pots. Watering with 50/50 tap/distilled starting ppm 70

Ph has been tanking but hovering around 6.2 and was starting to see signs of deficiency/lockout.

Did a flush on 1/28. Was getting a good reading of ph6.5 after only running 2gal of tap ppm140 ph’d to 6.5. I know this was probably not enough of a flush but went with it since i was reading 6.5.

Ran 1gal of full strength jacks and the runoff ph went back down to 6.3 with ppm650.

As of last night plants are looking absolutely horrible. Severely drooping, yellowing leaves, shriveled leaves(and happening really fast). This is 3 of 4 plants all basically the same reaction. 1 seems to be somewhat tolerating it with just severe drooping.

My question is, do you think i should flush again at next watering since the ph dropped or just go in with full nutes?

Side note: i have been adding silica at 3-5ml per gal sporadically(not inconsistent by choice just forgot on a few feeds). Looking back at my notes i notice that ive had severe drooping within hrs of the feeds that included the silica. Wondering if its due to the silica/low ph combo or the brand or…:thinking:
To add to the confusion and lead me to believe the silica may have something to do with it. I have a 5th plant in a 2gal fabric pot that has maintained 6.5ph so i didnt flush this one but just ran to 20% runnoff as i normally do with all of them. After this last watering with the same full jacks she is also wilting pretty bad😕

Thanks in advance :metal:

biscotti - the worst of the 4 affected

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Your plants need a good haircut to get air flowing throughout the canopy im not familiar with what nuts your using someone else can help with that. Your plants are having a hard time feeding all that growth seems like my friend happy growing

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@Lostgirl i dont want to hijack this thread but im in the same position as the op here and need an opinion.
Flipped to 12/12 on 1/9, ffhf and ffof, jacks 321, 5gal fabric pots. Watering with 50/50 tap/distilled starting ppm 70

Ph has been tanking but hovering around 6.2 and was starting to see signs of deficiency/lockout.

Did a flush on 1/28. Was getting a good reading of ph6.5 after only running 2gal of tap ppm140 ph’d to 6.5. I know this was probably not enough of a flush but went with it since i was reading 6.5.

Ran 1gal of full strength jacks and the runoff ph went back down to 6.3 with ppm650.

As of last night plants are looking absolutely horrible. Severely drooping, yellowing leaves, shriveled leaves(and happening really fast). This is 3 of 4 plants all basically the same reaction. 1 seems to be somewhat tolerating it with just severe drooping.

My question is, do you think i should flush again at next watering since the ph dropped or just go in with full nutes?

Side note: i have been adding silica at 3-5ml per gal sporadically(not inconsistent by choice just forgot on a few feeds). Looking back at my notes i notice that ive had severe drooping within hrs of the feeds that included the silica. Wondering if its due to the silica/low ph combo or the brand or…:thinking:
To add to the confusion and lead me to believe the silica may have something to do with it. I have a 5th plant in a 2gal fabric pot that has maintained 6.5ph so i didnt flush this one but just ran to 20% runnoff as i normally do with all of them. After this last watering with the same full jacks she is also wilting pretty bad😕

Thanks in advance :metal:

biscotti - the worst of the 4 affected

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@Metalheadfred please answer all the questions below to the best of your ability. If there’s a question mark? Answer the question :partying_face:

BTW, nice job on detailing and describing your issues. (This helps us help you tremendously)

Watering with 50/50 tap/distilled starting ppm 70

1.)What is the PPM of just your regular tap water?
2.) What is the total PPM after you add distilled/nutrients etc to your feed.?

Did a flush on 1/28. Was getting a good reading of ph6.5 after only running 2gal of tap ppm140 ph’d to 6.5. I know this was probably not enough of a flush but went with it since i was reading 6.5.

Not exactly when I call a flush but it’s okay.

Ran 1gal of full strength jacks and the runoff ph went back down to 6.3 with ppm650

Potentially a small red flag. Full strength nutrients should have ran off a little more PPM than 650 nevertheless, you want to obtain 1,000 PPM runoff to be sure your plants have sufficient nutrients available in the soil at all times. (We’ll come back to this)

To add to the confusion and lead me to believe the silica may have something to do with it

No, using silica or not at these low doses would not cause the issues that you’re saying. You’re okay there

You flipped on 1/9/25 have you seen any pistols starting?

I’m assuming all of your 4 plants are in a tent together?

What size tent do you have?

As brother @Reed71 said, you have a serious Air Flow restriction with them girls. They should have been lollipopped and deflorated weeks ago while you were in veg.

How many fans do you have blowing around in your tent?

What is your tents inside temperature and relative humidity during the day and during the evening?

Am I correct in assuming that your documenting all of your feeds PPM and pH both going in and running off?

Am I correct in assuming of the 4 girls after their recent flush & Feed that all of your runoff ppms are between 650-700?

When was the last time you calibrated your pH and PPM meter? If you don’t mind could you take a picture of your meters and post it please.

I don’t see anything indicating your water feeding habits for these four girls. How many times a week are you feeding them? Are you feeding with every watering?

It’s very important not to over water (by wandering too frequently) the plant needs a total day of dryness for her oxygen uptake that is so desperately needed. Just be sure you’re not watering her when the soil still wet this leads to many issues.

A few things stand out to me,

A I believe the droopiness that you’re seeing this coming from low feeds as she’s concentrating on eating like a pig because she has so much vegetation to take care of.

B Air Flow restriction is definitely giving you an issue. Do you know how to a lollipop and and a light deflorate?

You’re running off a 6.2 pH it’s slightly concerning but not oh so bad. I believe the yellowing and drooping is a cause of your plants being hungry as I mentioned above and not your pH.

My personal recommendations
The first thing I would do to eliminate a serious potential issue is to calibrate your PPM and pH meter. Eliminating bad readings is the key to proper diagnosis

Lollipopping all four of your girls is needed severely at this time. Lollipopping is removing all the vegetation and Bud sites from the bottom one third of your plant. Your plants should look like this right now. And will once you lollipop

Below is a guide explaining the process of lollipopping.

This is a lot of work but needs done ASAP before your plant starts flowering.

As far as your past flush goes. It wasn’t the correct way to flush but I don’t recommend flushing them again as of yet.

I’m assuming your plants takes at least two days to dry out. You’ve just fed her. I strongly suggest in the next 2 days you do your best while there drying to do the lollipop on each girl.

Also if you have the calibration solutions to calibrate both your PPM and pH meters

This was a long post with a lot of questions do your best to answer every question

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@Lostgirl that’s what they need lollipop and reset

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@Lostgirl
Thanks so much for starting the new thread and the recommendations🤘
My setup
4x4 mars hydro tent
Lights - aci ionboard 2x4, aci ionboard 3x3 and an aci iongrid 2x4
Exhaust - 6" aci
Intake - 6" mars hydro
One 9" oscillating aci fan
One 9" oscillating turbo fan
Aci humidifier t3
Aci heater
Aci pro controller
Apera pc60
5gal aci fabric pots
Ffhf w/20% perlite added with about 2 - 3" of ffof on the bottom
Strains im running - biscotti, apple fritter, wedding cake, banana runtz from GCS

Ill start with, i was only intending to run 2 or 3 plants this round but wound up with 5(long story in itself)

Ive been lurking here for quite a few months soaking up info and trying my hardest to get through issues with the info already provided in the many many threads related to issues ive had but here i am😄
Not completely new to growing as an old hps/organic grower from the 90s. Wanting to get back in to it, i purchased a mars setup a few years ago and had a few pretty decent grows(ironically with autos). Late last year i had a grow(photos) gowing south quick and found this forum. Even with all the great info i found here i still lost all 3 plants😟

Soooo to this grow
Ive had some issues from the beginning but was able to get through them for the most part. All 5 plants started showing deficiencies (mostly yellowing)about a week and a half after transplanting to their final homes in fresh ff soil which seemed strange right off the get go. I wasnt even at the stage of full watering(too soon for plant size) so i didnt have runoff to test at that point. Was still watering in a ring outside of the stem to promote root spreading. Wound up giving jacks pretty early on and when i was finally at the point of water runoff i had numbers in the low 2000s ppm. Girls started looking better but had some darkening on leaves(assuming nitrogen tox).

Been playing with feeds ever since and was starting to get ppm numbers dialed in but dealing with the ph issue (and the girls telling me they weren’t completely happy lol). Trying to stay consistant and not make drastic changes in my feed #'s but did do one watering of just plain phd water.
Heres some numbers from 2 feeds ago
Biscotti
In
Ph7.71 Ppm825 ec1709
Out:
Ph6.31 Ppm887 ec1783

Wedding cake left
In
Ph7.3 ppm790 ec1580
Out:
Ph6.3 Ppm908 ec1810

Wedding cake right
In
Ph7.3 Ppm790 ec1580
Out:
Ph6.34 Ppm947 ec1910

Apple fritter
In
Ph7.3 Ppm790 ec1580
Out:
Ph6.6 ppm1100 ec2220

Banana runtz
In:
Ph7.4 Ppm710 ec1420
Out:
Ph6.36 ppm980 ec1950

I went in with a higher ph hoping to get the runoff up a little bit. Since i was still running low i figured id flush next round.

They are all flowering at this point

Was thinking the same but my Apera Meter was calibrated about 3 weeks ago and i always compare my ph readings with a cheapo meter i have on hand and they are always really close. I will calibrate again though including ec.

Lights on avg 76° 65rh
Lights off avg 68° 60rh
Trying to maintain 1.10 avg vpd lights on

Watering when dry which was about every 4 days and now every 3 to 4.

My well water is 140ppm and 7.4 to over 8ph from the tap. Mixing 50/50 with distilled which brings it down to 70ppm.

I did a light defol just prior to flip. Im at the 3 weeks post flip and was planning on a heavy defol today or tomorrow on water day but not sure i want to stress them at this point. I know this is an issue and have been dying to do it but wanted to wait till the end(or near end) of the stretch.

Lst from early on trying to keep things spread out best i can. With too many plants in the room its gonna be tough er.

Probably missed something but this should give a pretty good picture of whats going on.

Thanks so much for taking the time!! Sooo many awesome ppl on this forum🤘

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@Metalheadfred I’m heading in to back to back doctors appointments. I’ll be home in a couple hours I’ll address your post and reply. Thanks for your patience

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Thanks @Lostgirl
And thanks for the input @Reed71
Couldnt agree more about the haircut and im on 3 weeks since flip and was hoping to hack them up today or tomorrow. Obviously should have taken more off prior to flip.

This is them less than a week after flip
Thought they were spread pretty good but…

:metal:

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And after their “flush” 3 days ago.

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And the most puzzling part to me is this apple fritter in the 2gal bag. No flush, just a regular feed with 20% runoff.
In - 6.7ph 885ppm
Out - 6.5ph 1020ppm
Good #s but the same issue with severe wilt etc…
Only difference this feed was the added silica.
Makes no sense at all but…
While ive had some issues with the others, this one has been pretty good throughout the grow with maintaining ph, ppms, and generally looking healthy

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@Metalheadfred looking at your plants and your last couple feeds run off numbers it’s clear the soil needs a flush reset. Unfortunately 2 gallons of water do not reset.

You definitely have a lot of work ahead of you. I know you were on the other guys posting where I was showing him how to properly flush. You should follow the exact procedures as I recommend to him for the exception of when you make your feed with jacks Go full strength!

This will help you flush properly

Okay moving forward, it’s going to be a lot of work flushing these girls and resetting the soil to 6.5 but it will work. I just want to point out to you that in the past it is known that some batches of Happy frog soil have a low swinging pH issue. I’m not saying that your problem is from that I just wanted to throw that out there.

I truly believe flushing and replenishing the soil with full strength jacks after the flush will get you back on track with your pH. Doing the desperately needing lollipop will help as well. You’re more than likely into the stretch now and it should be over in another week or so.

You definitely have all the basics down packed but just remember you want to obtain and maintain every time you feed 1,000 PPM runoff with 6.5 pH.

Once it’s time to start flushing you’re going to need a :poop: load of water and patience. When you’re all finished and you have the runoff final numbers after flushing and feed replacement come back here and post your numbers.

Please let me know if you don’t understand something or have any questions

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Thanks @Lostgirl i figured thats where i was in the process unfortunately :worried:

Given that this is likely the infamous happy frog ph issue ive been reading about here on the forums, do you think this will actually reset? And will it hold 6.5 after the flush or am i looking at issues till the end of this grow?

Thanks again!:metal:

Personally I believe you’ll be just fine with the flush. I’ve actually had the low swing Happy frog soil and the pH is much lower than yours.

You’re only off by a little bit. Nevertheless, if you had to look at the absolute worst case scenario (and I don’t think you are) there’s still a fix that’s quick it’s easy. Simply change to advanced nutrients and never have a pH issue again.

With that said, I believe you’re fixed is a flush reset and lollipopping. You’re going to be right back on track and good to go!

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Thank you!:crossed_fingers:
Lights on at 5pm est. Almost scared to see what they look like today😬
:metal:

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What’s your PPFD or DLI and how far are the lights away from the plants?
I grow in only FF soils and don’t see anything wrong with your run off numbers maybe a little low on feed

If you like I can tag you in my thread

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Well @Lostgirl i did the long painful flush last night and came out with some really disappointing final numbers.

Flush water: added calmag to my tap water to bring up to 190ppm then phd to 6.56. Ran about 15gallons(1/2gal at a time) through all but 1 of the wedding cakes which i ran about 17gal(and couldnt get her above 6.35ph). The others all sat at 6.42 - 6.44ph and had no change in readings from 9gal to the final 15gal.
Final runoff ppm after flush was between 350 and 400 for all.

Ran about 2 to 2/12gal of full jacks 50/50 tap/distilled through all of them. Ppm runoff after the first gallon was in the low 400s for all.
The final numbers😒
Biscotti
In
Ph6.58 Ppm1120
Out:
Ph6.38 Ppm506

Wedding cake left
In
Ph6.57 ppm1010
Out:
Ph6.16 Ppm660

Wedding cake right
In
Ph6.57 Ppm1010
Out:
Ph6.16 Ppm720

Apple fritter
In
Ph6.57 Ppm1010
Out:
Ph6.46 ppm910

Banana runtz
In:
Ph6.58 Ppm1120
Out:
Ph6.25 ppm760

Runoff ph #s are actually worse than preflush😡

I calibrated the apera 3x throughout the process just to be sure. The cheapo ph pen was consistantly .2 above the apera readings(6.3 apera = 6.5 cheapo)

Did a heavy defoliate but they all looked pretty horrible when i was done at about 4am😫. See what they do over the next couple days but im not holding up too much hope at this point😕

:metal:

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Hey @spankyjr1 running at 20" above canopy at 90%. Ppfd 900 - 950
Ive been playing with the height, intensity and ppfd from 18" - 22" to 80 - 100% and 850 to 1000ppfd. Sweet spot at this point seems to be 18" at 90%

Been playing with the feed numbers and was getting closer and closer to the optimal 1000ppm in and 1000ppm out. Just regret doing my original 2gal “flush” in an attempt to get the ph up😒

Thanks for the input!
:metal:

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What I learned over the years is my soil PH in FF soils is it always starts off low and slowly rises, then it starts rising faster on it’s own after the flip to flower. The more you try and correct it the worse it gets. At least that has been my experience
Best of luck

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@spankyjr1 thats interesting :thinking: what nutrient line are you running?
My ph numbers have been slowly dropping so i assumed i had salt buildup. At one point a few feeds ago the biscotti dipped to a runoff ph of 6.12 and the others were hovering around 6.3.

Figured id flush so i started running straight tap phd to 6.5. Was getting 6.5 runoff after running about 2 gal through so thought i was good. Followed with a feed of jacks and the numbers dipped again.

Was running the FF trio when i first got back in to the hobby a few yrs ago. Was going ok but wanted to avoid the scheduled flushes so i switched to jacks. I may switch it up to the AN ph perfect as @Lostgirl suggested.

:metal:

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@Metalheadfred
Actually most of your plants numbers increased in pH from the flush. Your lowest number 6.1

As I told you before your plants aren’t locked out and what you’re seeing in yellow leaves are nothing to worry about or be concerned with at this time. I’ve seen this happen with Happy frog soil many times. The pH will never reach 6.5 and I’ve seen it as low as 6.2 and have no negative effect in nutrient uptake. Don’t ask me why I can’t answer that.

Nevertheless, I believe what you’ve done will resolve any issues. Your feed numbers run off ppms are low but can increase your feed next time you water to bring the numbers up.

It’s always a challenge when you have multiple girls if you’re trying to get each plant to eat the same amount of feed. However, I would go in full strength on your next feed document the PPM and pH

If the ppms are less than a 1000 feed more next time. If they’re more than a 1000 PPM be less.

If you can show me some pictures of your defloration. Remember once lollipopping as well will help your plants concentrate with less vegetation that’s unnecessary

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