I could not respond for 24 hours. @CurrDogg420 sound familiar. Ha
So you had to go and bait me like that. I think I will just cut and paste from my old thread “it’s seeds time everyone”. I hope it’s not too boring Currdogg. He removed you from the thread so it makes less sense in places without your dialog. It was too much to retype it all again. Anyway…
It’s seeds time everyone
I held on to a male of my strawberry cough x Durban poison f1s. He is chucking his pollen on the milk crate of honor today or tomorrow. I put the mom Durban and a sister from the original straw cough pack. I also put in all the f1 cross sisters I kept clones of.
All winter long I do seed runs in my temporary greenhouse. I quit seeding select branches of the summer crop because no matter how careful I was I would always seed out the plants. I would keep males offsite at a friends house miles away. I would go cut stamens in the paper bags at his house. I would shower and change my clothes when I got home. Then tie the bag onto select branches. At harvest time all I would have is a plant loaded up with seeds, and the plant next to it, and the plant next to that. Be careful a little pollen goes a LONG ways. It was not worth risking the fall harvest in my opinion. So this is my solution. I do winter greenhouse seedings on little baby clones. That way I have great control over what I’m chucking. I am not fucking up anyone else’s crop downwind with pollen because everything‘s in by now. And it’s just fun to do.
A female clone about 12” tall usually gives me about 100-200seeds. The males I just keep abused and Bansai in 4” starter pots. That’s why I put him up on the milk crate of honor. That way he is above all the ladies. I have keeper males I have Bansai grown for 6-7 years.
“Deleted lost question from Currdogg” something about when I sex seedlings.
Then I reply:
This is just my experience and not the grow bible. I know there are many great ways to grow. This is just my routine and experience. I am not telling anyone they have to do, or not do anything. I love input and other tips too. But try to not be an asshole. There are nice ways to interject, suggest, and influence besides saying someone sucks and they are full of shit. My grow will keep on growing and my soil will go on living either way.happy growing.
@CurrDogg420 , it really depends when you figure out if you have a boy, girl, or intersex plant.
When popping seeds, I like to pop them sometime around Valentine’s Day. That way I can put them outside in their 4 inch starter pots while the daylight is still short. If you live somewhere cold and snowy, then put them in the south facing discreet window. Or temporary shorten your indoor lights to 12 or 11 hours (flower). A few weeks of this interval will not fuck your plants up. It will allow you to identify boys from girls at three or four sets of leaves. It usually takes 3-4 weeks, outdoors or in the short interval grow light, to wait for them to preflower. I prefer to use the window or outdoors. You can keep your inside light on the long veg interval if you use the natural light. And then leave the plants outside or in the window until they actually show you what sex they are. That way if you get a stubborn one, you’re not holding up your lights for that one stubborn one. And you can get the rest of them right back into long interval veg with the lights. They won’t miss a beat this way if you do it on very short plants which is three or four sets of true leaves. If you did this on bigger plants it takes a lot longer to get them back vegetative again. Female or male. The trick to making this quick and painless is to do it on short little plants. Skip all aspects of veg. Like on the third set of true leaves.
Now that I know the tiny little seedling males in 4” starter pots, I tag them with a couple of tags and tape so they are well identified and not to be confused as females. (Damn crows steal my tags). As the males start to develop preflower stamens you must pinch roll them or cut it off. Like pinching back bolting basil or spinach. I found once they start opening flowers they don’t usually stop. Also and more importantly, once they start popping open stamens they like to senesce and die. They are not easy to monster crop back to life like a finished female. They really seem to just die once they chuck out their pollen. Like that’s all that they ever wanted to do in life. Anyway, pinch back any male flowers before they open and start raining pollen. Then get them back vegging under the long interval light. They will keep veg growing.
Right at this time is the first assessment and selective reducing of the boys. If any of them just smell like hemp or hay at preflower then compost them. You do want the ones that smell aromatic with terpenes. Rub the stem to see if it feels greasy, or hairy, or smelly. Or best actually have a few crystals of trichomes. Wiggle the plant in the sunlight and if they glisten (like a mirror in the sun). Those are rare jems👀. I find I toss away 10 for every one or two potential good ones I find.
The whole collection (males and females) are kept Bansai under veg lights until spring planting. My veg lights are just a couple of cheap 13 watt LEDs (used to use T5HO, and power compacts before that). I have them up 12-13” above the soil line in old 20 gallon aquariums. I top any plants that grow up into the lights down to the first nodes boy or girl. I feed them as little as possible to minimize the growth. Lil plants don’t care and are ok with it. If you feed them up you will be one with the scissors all too often in my humble opinion. Once spring comes I plant out the females and keep the males in the 4” starter pot.
The males I rehack foliage and stems (spring time) if needed. Then I rip each out of it’s 4” pot and cut the bound tangle of roots in half. Then repot into the same size pot (clean pot if any pest issues) with fresh rich soil. I do this root hack again in the fall before pollen chucking or bringing in a keeper male for the winter. The males are kept in trays together outdoor where they are kept small (under 12”) out of the way, but where I won’t forget about them.
Or at a friends you trust. They need to be checked at least weekly to make sure they do not flower. Pinch out any flowers and take notes. (Smells, trichomes, oils). If one is picky about nutes, or is a mess to grow, fuck it. You don’t want your plants to do that x generations down the line.
Then around august 1st I take clones of all my keeper females for next year. They are cut from the big moms I am flowering out. I don’t run perpetual mamas inside. I think it is important that the clone comes from a plant experiencing the outdoor environment. Not a mama kept inside. The outside plant adapts (heirlooms) to the local microclimate in my humble opinion. My jillybean has shortened the flower time by 3 weeks since I first got it. The only reason I know this is impeccable notes. If you want to breed you have to take notes. I log flower times after solstice, first mold, height, flavor. You will kick yourself if you have a plant question you cannot remember that would be answered by the log. Breeding is more a long game, but I find it interesting and fun. It makes me think of the plant in more ways than the bud count if that makes sense?
Of course Tag and track so you don’t mix the females up. Once they root, I put them in under the veg lights and Bansai them till the next spring. I like to take 3 female clones of each so I have extra. Crowd them all into one pot, 3 cuts per 4” pot works perfectly. If you don’t want to break them up later then just take 1 or the pot is not big enough. I figure: One female to seed, one to gift, and one to grow next year. (None ever die right😜).
The potential seedling males (and any held over clone keeper males from previous years) are moved inside under veg lights too at this time. Alternatively, I also frequently move males out front directly under my street light. There is a big laurel hedge there that I nestle (hide) my males into. Right where the street light beam shines. This keeps the males from going flower, keeps them cold hardened, and I keep them hacked off short and tight. If you live somewhere cold and frosty this probably won’t work for you. Better to just pull the males in at the same time as the keeper females. Keep them all under 12” short Bansai in 4” pots nestled inside. After they root back early to mid august. (Still with me?)
The only wait now is for the main flower crop. Wait until it is in for harvest. Then I immediately put the males back out (or move from the street light) under my pop up temporary greenhouse. I throw the males up onto the milk crate of honor and let them rain pollen. All over the sacrificial extra female clones out to be seeded. I usually do this p1 boy at a time to selectively pollinate many different girls at once.
Rinse repeat until spring planting or you run out of males. You will have so many seeds.
If I end up with a larger plant that shows male, I like to just take a clone off a lower branch. Then Bansai the new boy clone. This happens to the best of us. I always get fooled once or twice every year with a surprise boy past sex determination. I find more than females, the male flowers tend to really build in the tops. The lower (think boy larf) branches rarely show stamens while the tops are yellow dusty male storm. That makes it easy to steal a clone and ditch the 4’ tall dad in a big pot.
Why do I like to Bansai? I love the Bansai for high plant counts, it takes low space, low lights power draw and all on one shelf or fish tank. And then I release it out into the world every spring. I find it fun and exciting, I guess not always logically, to use the sun. I guess more of a personal challenge to do as many steps as I can naturally under the sun. Sometimes it’s fucking hard and I’m stubborn. Thank goodness I can always turn to the lights in a pinch.
My final thoughts, on at least outdoor males, go like this. I have found that 3/4 of the male plants will sex around the summer solstice. Like If a grower just let them grow out naturally and did not preflower sex them early. Then I find the rest of the males will stamen out late August. I virtually never see males in between. (But still keep an eye out). These are the most important times to watch if you are growing new regular seeds for the boys.
Also, I must mention intersex traits thoughts as well. What I have noticed is that true intersex plants will have female flowers up in the tops when they start to flower. And then have one or two small male flowers down in the lower nodes way below the tops. Isolated from the female clusters. At the places you would first presex young seedlings. The plant will look male here despite the tops solid female flowers. This usually happens earlier in flower like week 3-4. But even later if they are below the female flowers and at an isolated node you have a hermaphroditic intersex plant.
In contrast to plants that Rodelize male “bananas” up in the flower tops. Usually later in flower. Even on lower larf the male stamen (banana) is up at the tip of the flower cluster. Vs down isolated at a node below. These seeds tend to be randomly precious few in a plant that fully buds out. Often the grower doesn’t even see the very few random seeds until consuming the final product. These rodelized “banana” male flowers tend to overwhelmingly produce feminized (in my humble opinion and my well tracked experience) seeds. Don’t chuck them. (Usually < 20 seeds in the whole plant).
In contrast to true hermaphroditic intersex plants there will be a lot more seeds. Say if you get closer to 100 seeds. Or more. Those go right into the bird feeder.
On purposely seeded (pollinated) 12” clones I usually get 100-200 seeds each. Very little of the bud will be usable in any way. It is mostly seeds. Sacrificed to make seeds.
Don’t be surprised, you will make some total shit seeds. Even with the male that you thought was the best. Chuck those, don’t keep them unless they are better than what you started with. I like to go for mold resistant, and terp content. I like stinky weed. If they suck I put them in the bird feeder. If they are good I share them with my local grow buddies and they help me with the pheno hunts.
Also, if you find a keeper male you want to save, you want to have a clone ready first. What I mean is make sure to take an extra clone of any male you let go to pollen. The males will usually die once they release their pollen. I find them very difficult to re-grow. I already said that but it’s something else important to think about if you find a keeper. You want to have that clone first. If you find a male is not a keeper then fucking chuck that extra clone too. Don’t keep trash.
“@CurrDogg420” “how long do the 12” females take to produce viable seed? Is it the full 2 months or does it happen faster than that?“
I find that seeds ripen up quite a bit faster under the natural sun than the lights. Even when I used to run metal halide and sodium back in the day. Outside I find about four weeks is all that’s needed. At a month they are hard and popping out of the dried seed bracts. Indoor it’s always closer to seven or eight weeks. Or else most the seeds are small and gray and squishy. What’s crazy about it, since I do my seed runs in the winter it’s always pretty cold. Where I’m at in Seattle it’s not a freeze fest, but it’s definitely jacket weather. I find that my night times under my temporary greenhouse will often get down to the 40s, and my day temps for often not exceed 60. Even in this cold conditions the outdoor seeds ripen up in about a month. I believe the cooler temps stress the plant to finish the seeds faster. (Just a theory). I don’t even worry about light frost, it’s the wind storms that make me take everyone inside for a bit. These plants will look like shit, but their seeds will be perfect. I also take notes on how well the seeded females take the cold and humid air for future selection criteria.
Remember when you were wondering about whether females will signal each other to flower through the roots to make other females flower faster? I still haven’t noticed a correlation with female signals. But I have definitely found this to be true when there is a male present. The females seem to be able to sense his presence even before he releases the pollen. When I have them up (males) on top of the milk crate of honor, the females all lean way over towards him. Even if they are on the south side of him and he is away from the sun. It’s pretty crazy. I also see this indoor too. If your females are leaning towards the lights. And you put a male to the outside of your tent or grow area, those ladies will lean back towards the boy. It’s like he can summon them with a canaplant Jedi mind trick.
“@CurrDogg420 “What I was thinking about when I asked, was that perhaps my first grow with the regular seeds, I wouldn’t do any selecting right away-“
Even if you didn’t cull the males out as baby seedlings, I would still select as you approach pollination. I would rub the stems for terpy smells mainly. And remove any undelightful growth patterns. You don’t want those hempy or grassy smelling males weakening what you started with. With males you get a mix of better, same and worse for all the traits we select for. Just take clones of the males ahead of time if you want to find a keeper. And chuck all the shit once you know. Even with the males I clone at two or three to a pot. And then separate them out as I need to use them for pollen.
With apple trees, you can sprout a seed off any Apple. But only like one in a 1000 will be a fruit producer that’s sweet, big fast plump, and pest resistant. 999 of those will become crab apples and shit apples. You don’t want to pollinate with crab apples and shit apples if you can easily prevent it. Know what I mean?
“@CurrDogg420 “You had mentioned in a different thread, I think in regards to re-vegging, a process where you only partially chop down the female, and then put a male in with her.”
Yes that works great. In that thread, the grower had put a clone out to bask in the sunlight. They forgot about their clone and it sat out for too long as the days get shorter. Their clone began to have a lot of flower. Their question was about revegetate on the flowering clone. They totally do revege. And then the other thread was with somebody who had monster cropped a big female at harvest but didn’t have a clone. So they left the lower larf buds and leaves and turned it back to a veg cycle. That also works well, but I prefer to just have clones ahead of time because it saves like eight weeks of watching both these scenario plants revegetate.
So what you do is hit them with some pollen (stored or time a male to flower) on day 1 you turn them back to long cycle veg period. Those oops late clone buds, and the larf on the monstercropper will gladly take pollen, grow seeds, and revegetate all at once. Those seeds will be viable and the reveg takes no longer w the seeds on board. I have experimented extensively with sister clones (seeded, not seeded) side by side and found they reveg at the same rate.
This scenario most often happens to me when I leave my sun grown clones outside too late in the fall. I just get distracted with harvesting or life with the family. I’m embarrassed to admit how many times this has happened. It is definitely an opportunity to make some seeds while you’re waiting out the revege anyway. That’s all I was talking about.
I’m actually doing this right now with some clones I left out late on purpose. So I can show you some example pictures later on this winter of sister veg clones all seeded and sans seeds side by side.
When I put a female clone out to purposely be seeded, i usually give her two or three weeks outside ahead of time. This allows her to fill out with lots of pistols all the way up and down her stem. The guy Ferreri stage. The stiff white ones early in flower. Then once the pollen hits I just leave the female out until she dies. This will maximize the seeds. Inversely, if your clone starts to flower oops scenario, you need to pull them back in for the revegetate. You’re not gonna let them keep budding. So you only have a few pistols up and down the stems. So you only get a few seeds this way. You know maybe 6 to 20 seeds off a baby clone that it reveging. You would get a lot more off a big female monstercropping. On a female dedicated to seed production that I let die, I always get closer to 200 seeds. I hope that helps clarify things.