After one day with fresh nutes they read the same the 2nd check. Maybe the PH goes up or down 0.1 but the TDS stays within 100PPM or so.
As a guess, I put about 4 gallons in the container as I don’t technically fill them all of the way up. It’s right around a gallon a day they use, give or take a bit.
Day 1: 4 fresh gallons
Day 3: 2.5-3 gallons( top off to 4 gallon total PH/TDS still good)
Day 5: 2.5-3 gallons left( TDS higher, like 1500, P.H. Is usually 0.1-0.3 lower than the standard 5.9 goal)
Day 6-7: dump and refill. If I only refill-PPM is over 2000 and PH drops to like 4.6 within a couple more days.
It really stumps me because I don’t understand why this only happens when it’s flipped to flower. Kind of back tracking I have vegged a couple for 3+ months now, not a single issue. For those 3 months, I don’t dump or get out of range or even close to going out of range once. I simply top up for those 3 months. If it needed it, I would dump or clean it, it just doesn’t need it.
Same environment, same everything.
I just flip to 12/12, within 1-3 weeks the games begin.
Oh, no I just top it off with the same nutrient solution. I mix up 6 gallons at a time, then transfer what’s needed. Store the extra in a sealed jug in a cool dark place.
I didn’t think to check the temps recently, that’s something I should do. I try to keep it no more than 70F, preferably 68F. Does that sound right?
Generally not good practice to store mixed nutrient solution. If you do store it’s best to have in something that’s aerated or circulated. Not sure this is contributing to your issues but worth considering.
This is a standard dwc system correct? I think I would move to using a larger res and do maintenance checks daily. Your typical adjustment will be to adjust ph, probably daily. When you notice it needs water use ppm levels to determine how you move forward. You may be able to add a couple gallons of straight water and then set ph and call it good. Or if you see nutrient concentration has dropped you can add a couple gallons of nutrient solution and set ph. But you more or less have to be reactive to what’s going on in your res and not have a predetermined top off with full strength nutrient solution.
The dwc growers i follow that seem to have the most success are usually using something like a 20-27 gallon storage tote for res. They can usually go 1-2 weeks on fresh res making minor daily adjustments before doing full res change. You probably don’t need 27 gallon but the larger you have the more stable your solution will be.
I do store it in just a 6 gallon water jug. It’s used within 3-5 days of being mixed and checks out when I check the PPM/PH. It’s definitely something worth noting though absolutely. I had assumed with things like autopots, this wouldn’t be much different than the water sitting in the lines/storage.
It is a standard setup. I am considering one larger unit to put 4 in a 4x4 tent, I’d probably end up with 2 in 2 though.
I understand entirely what you are saying and you make good points that I have overlooked or have underestimated to cause an issue.
For some reason though I can’t stop focusing on this part though:
Why, during vegging, does this routine work perfectly? What is different about vegging and bloom stages and how does that contribute to the issue?
When I reached out to jacks nutrients they made two suggestions. One, having my water tested to see exactly what is in it as well as sending in plant material to have tested to see what exactly the deficiency’s or toxicities the plant had.
They then said after those two things are tested it would show what it is and offered to use that data to make a customized feeding requirements ( I.e, If there isn’t enough X in my water or too much).
It looks like it would be about $100 to do the above, do you have any thoughts about that?
This plant is a clone, the mother has been vegging for 3+ months. It’s in the exact same “situation” other than still on an 18hr cycle. Same feed, same size rez, same location, etc.
It’s res and plant itself have only been topped off with everything showing and testing good. never needs anything but refilled and PH/TDS stays perfect with healthy growth.
My main goal here is to find this problem I am having and fix it. Once found and fixed, I will then try again with another set of the same clones. I don’t have the expectation this one will survive or need it to, other than to stop this from occurring during flower in the future.
quote=“Bubblegumfreak, post:25, topic:118219”]
Same feed, same size rez, same location, etc.
It’s res and plant itself have only been topped off with everything showing and testing good. never needs anything but refilled and PH/TDS stays perfect with healthy growth
[/quote]
As a grower it’s really hard not to think this way but this path does nothing to help you. Something is wrong and it’s up to you to figure out if you want to be successful.
$100 isn’t a ridiculous amount but you should be able to make generalized assessment without paying anyone. Are you using tap water? What is the ppm of your tap water? Has this been considered and/or accounted for in your tds measurements? Is the water your using softened or have high levels or chlorine? Have you tried using something like distilled or ro water? You’re not currently monitoring res temps, what do roots look like?
Something else I thought of, how much room is typically between your nutrient solution and bottom of your netpot?
I don’t know for sure if any of this will help your plant, but the more you know is good you can start eliminating potential issues. This could be from something as simple as fan blowing too strongly directly over plant, not having enough air in your res, or require a simple change in your recipe. But I don’t know that for sure so I don’t want to shoot from the hip and have you chasing the wrong issues either. I feel that getting basics covered and seeing where that takes you is the best approach. If nothing else you’ll be more prepared moving forward.
The PPM is between 180-210 from the tap with a 7.0 PH.
Yes, The final “mix” comes in between 1000-850 PPM depending on if I overfill the mixing jug or not. ( Similiar to what others are saying, sometimes a 5 gallon mix will end up with 5.5-6 gallons of water).
I do not know, honestly. Typically I let the water air out for 24 hours, as I have read this helps the chlorine dissipate.
I did this one time, but basically killed the plant. I couldn’t keep the PH where it needed to be, it kept going high on me. This is after all nutes were added with around 800PPM total. When I did this, It didn’t help what I was looking for so I didn’t proceed with it further.
I see the temp when I check the PH, I have the tent in a lung room that has a minisplit. I have it so if the tent starts to get too warm it just pulls in more cool air, which comes in " around" the res. Keeps it under 70-72F in the res so typically I just glance over it not paying attention to it. I will moving forward.
For this I keep it about 1" below the bottom of the net pot, ignoring where the roots are. If the roots become more than 1/4 exposed, I add liquid, which is roughly a gallon.
I appreciate that and by all means, anything you mention gives me data and helps. I agree, I don’t want to pay anything if I don’t have to. I believe though a plant analysis and tap water analysis for that $100 would really give me a idea of what is directly in my water, as well as what my plants are lacking/excess in terms of nutrients. This gives me a good breakdown of what is in my water, which comes from the ground less than a mile away ( water treatment plant next to the river).
I went through this before and reading back I noticed I claimed I fixed the issue with Cal-mag supplements, but that was an early call and short lived.
This is all I’m after, my last few grows I feel I lost making it to the very “end” due to this issue. If the plant should look vibrant and healthy when you harvest, then I haven’t been doing it right at all.
I do think there is an imbalance in the feeding. I read during transition Phosphorus use really kicks up and nitrogen drops, which would create an imbalance. Maybe why some places suggest a veg and flower formula, I’m not sure.
Best to agitate the rez: I use an aquarium wavemaker for that. This will keep nutrient solution fresh(er) than if allowed to stagnate.
Completely different plant once it transitions to flower. Leaf production stops, increased uptake of P and K along with selective die-off of leaves.
IMO you are experiencing normal ‘fade’ during flower which affects older fan leaves.
Set your nutrient level to right around 1,000 to 1,100 ppm with Jack’s and silica. I used to run 3.6, 2.4, 1.2 but have backed that down to an actual 3,2,1 per gallon.
Thanks, so this 3.2.1 will give you about 1000PPM?
The aforementioned I do will give me about 1000PPM, so I think this would lower my EC. I’ll check though, I’m not against any suggestions or anything like that so I will check them both out.
This is what jacks suggested based on information without testing:
Part A: 3.8g
Part B: 2.5g
Epsom: 1g
This was his reasoning:
it should greatly improve your Ca:Mg ratio and should be a comparable EC. Currently your ratio is 114:98 and this would put it at 119:88, which should make more Ca available.
Which would be coming from a current:
3.6g of Part A (5-12-26)
2.4g of Part B
1.5g of Epsom salt
I do add silica every watering and I do see the normal older leaf fade on the bottom of the plant, the photo’s are of newer growth that was on top.
I took the clone and let it grow to about 2 feet tall before flipping. Those leaves were new when I flipped( the worst ones now). Excluding the fade at the bottom.
Hmm, this should have been the most stable scenario if it was mixed properly. When using completely stripped water the buffers in the fertilizer mix should drive this, mine usually comes in slightly over 5 and then needs adjusted up to 5.8. From there a standing bucket of this with air stone will usually raise ph.
I can’t figure out why yours is dropping under all circumstances. The other info you provided seems reasonable.
I’m all for trying a different recipe but I’m not expecting it to fix your crashing ph. From there I suspect the standard recipe would keep your plants relatively healthy if the ph was stable. Does this make sense as to why I’m asking all the questions?
First off we missed getting you to provide answers to this:
COPY/PASTE the below list into your forum post.
Answer these simple questions the best you can.
If you do not know, or do not use something; Just say so; Or post
NA (non applicable)
-What strain, Seed bank, or bag seed (photo or auto)
-Age of plant
-Method: Soil w/salt, Organic soil, Hydroponics, Aquaponics, KNF
-Vessels: Type and capacity of container (fabric, plastic, etc)
-PH and TDS of Water, Solution, runoff (if Applicable)
-PPM/TDS or EC of nutrient solution if applicable
-Method used to measure PH and TDS
-Indoor or Outdoor if indoor, size of grow space
-Light system List brand and wattage/spectrum
-Actual wattage draw of lights
-Current Light Schedule
-Temps; Day, Night
-Humidity; Day, Night
-Ventilation system; Yes, No, Size
-AC, Humidifier, De-humidifier,
-Co2; Yes, No
If growing Hydro some additional questions:
-DWC? RDWC? Autopots? Ebb and Flow? Other?
-Distance of liquid below net pot (DWC)
-Temperature of reservoir
-TDS of nutrient solution
-Amount of air to solution
Always try to upload a clear picture in white light of any issues you may have to allow the community to assist you.
I also wonder about your order or mixing nutes. Silica first followed by cal mag (if it’s used) then Part A, allow to dissolve completely, Part B and Epsom can go together. Then PH to range.
I take a 6 gallon jug and fill it about halfway with water.
I then take a single gallon jug and use it for this:
I mix part A in 3/4 gallon of water then dump it in the 6 gallon jug once fully dissolved.
I mix Part B and Epson in 3/4 a gallon of water and do the same.
I mix my silica in 3/4 gallon of water and do the same.
Test PH.
I then mix my PH adjust in 1/2 gallon of water and do the same.
Test PH and test TDS.
From here I leave the cap off for about a day and then feed them. Store any leftover for top ups. Everytime checking the PH with no/minimal change before use.
So do the silica first. Not sure if dissolving in a smaller amount of water will prevent it gelling. Just to be sure. @dbrn32 uses silica as a PH up IIRC by mixing a concentrated solution and adding to main amount.
The epsom can be pre-dissolved in a jug together with part A before adding to the final mix, but mixing the epsom and part B together should be avoided as they can make each other precipitate out of the solution basically.
Absolutely and I appreciate the help. To me, the questions help you “paint a picture” of what’s going on. These things you ask me are like a checklist you probably do yourself anyway when troubleshooting.
So when I did the mix with distilled water I was less than technical about it, I was trying to determine if it was something in my water causing issues. So I thought distilled would tell me that. So I whipped up a batch with distilled water.
I did reuse the same air stone, I didn’t rinse the roots/container or anything. I had assumed it had something to do with one of those things as to why the PH went up. Since this change wasn’t helping, rather introducing more variables I only did this the once. I could try it again, this time being technical about it.
My PH does great during veg, no matter how long I veg. the PH drops when the TDS goes up which prompts me to dump and fill new nutes, which only happens during flower.
Even doing this though and keeping it all in range, it won’t make it till the end properly. Once they hit 8 weeks they are practically dead.( all the leaves crispy, yellow etc). I mean they do enough to give me decent results, but it’s not right, I’m not able to run them as long as I would like.
What I thought that made sense that was said above, it was suggested it’s drinking more water than nutes. The increased concentration of nutes might be decreasing the PH almost linearly. Mix that with the now unbalanced nutes and its increase in P and decrease in N, furthering that imbalance.
After that was mentioned I checked my VPD and it’s running around 1.6-1.8, which for me is high. I usually aim for 1.3-1.5 VPD. I was watching it like crazy, then just sort of forgot the last few weeks because it had been staying in range.
I’m going to get some RO water and try that test again, more appropriately. I’ll also get the VPD lower, I don’t like it that high.
Just for my own curiosity, I’m going to send off some tap water to see what’s in it, nutrient wise.
